
It’s impossible to review Zero Dark Thirty without having to infiltrate a room full of political lasers like Catherine Zeta-Jones in Entrapment (much nicer metaphor than a mine field, isn’t it?). But you invite that when your movie screams “THIS IS TRUE” at the beginning, like Zero Dark Thirty does in its opening “real events” title card. You can’t just forgive everything in the guise of “but it’s a movie!” when the movie is so clearly telling you that it’s fact. Thus, whether Zero Dark Thirty correctly depicts torture isn’t nitpicking, it’s relevant. So is it “pro-torture,” as John McCain, Dianne Feinstein, and others have alleged? Mark Bowden, who wrote a book about the search for Bin Laden, says it’s not. Alex Gibney, who directed a movie about torture, doesn’t quite say Zero Dark Thirty is pro torture, but says it’s irresponsible.
To make a long story short and an answer predictable, they’re both right. Zero Dark Thirty is not immoral because it depicts torture as it was (something that happened, a context, a small part of the story but not a major player) without taking a particular stance. But it is a little amoral that it doesn’t seem to take any stance. It even omits key events to keep from having to. From an artistic standpoint, it doesn’t seem particularly concerned with humans. It feels like an attempt to create suspense with no soul. Bowden’s rule of thumb for dramatizing a true story responsibly is that you can invent, but you have to “color inside the lines” of the truth. That is, you create fictions within the unknowns without altering the shape of the facts. Zero Dark Thirty mostly does that, but it also omits big chunks of them (we’ll get to that). Artistically, another problem is, who is Jessica Chastain’s character? I watched the whole movie and I still know nothing about her. Zero Dark Thirty invents a character with no apparent personality to tell a story the broad strokes of which we already know. How does that help? It even makes the movie dull at times, like a dry and talky procedural. The lady next to me was snoring loudly.
The Hurt Locker, for all the massive liberties it takes with actual military tactics, had a compelling protagonist and a clear perspective. “War is a drug.” What’s Zero Dark Thirty‘s perspective? Redheads are smart? Incorrectly or not, people jumped to “torture is good” because there’s a vacuum of anything else.
Gibney says ZDT is wrong because it doesn’t use its opportunity to argue against torture:
The point I’m making is that, when the full history of “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques” is told we will see that it was not only brutal and counterproductive but ridiculous. The CIA waterboarded Abu Zubaydah 83 times and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times. Considering the repetition, just how effective were those techniques? And how good does the CIA look for insisting on mindless repetition of useless tactics?
But in ZD30, Boal and Bigelow have a problem. In the logic of a “movie,” it’s difficult for viewers root for people who are making terrible mistakes, have become corrupted or who are showcasing needless brutality. As a result, while the filmmakers do showcase American brutality, they suggest that it was necessary.
I’m not sure if Boal and Bigelow actually suggest that. Bowden counters:
Pure storytelling is not always about making an argument, no matter how worthy. It can be simply about telling the truth. Because torture was in the mix during all of the early interrogations, it would be wrong to ignore it, and impossible to say it had no effect.
Zero Dark Thirty seems to be more in the business of depicting arguments than making them, and that’s fine. But the bigger problem is, it omits crucial, compelling, real arguments in favor of easily-resolved fake ones.
It tells the story of the hunt for Osama Bin Laden through the eyes of this tenacious redhead played by Jessica Chastain. “Maya” doesn’t care about anything except finding Bin Laden (and, as depicted by the movie, has no friends, family, hobbies, sense of humor, or recreation of any kind), and she’s the main driving force behind the search, long after virtually everyone else has moved onto other things. That’s not really true, by the way. According to most people in the know, there were always multiple people pursuing the leads she’s seen as working on alone in the movie. But from the standpoint that she represents a composite of multiple people, fine. That’s a common trick in non-fiction writing. But at one point, Maya and her boss have it out over whether she should be working on Bin Laden or trying to prevent the next terror attack. Maya screams in her boss’s face, in a not-particularly-believable way, that he’s just some asshole looking to pad his resume (with another “Mullah Crackadullah”). And the way the movie shows it, in this retroactive, Aaron Sorkin-esque, see-she-was-right-all-along kind of way, it seems to indicate they think she was right. But was she? The question of whether you should be spending more energy on preventing future attacks, or punishing a mastermind of past attacks seems a lot more legitimate than the way it’s depicted here.
Kathryn Bigelow is brilliant at creating suspense, and for evidence you need look no further than The Hurt Locker, which was one long exercise in sustained tension. The way she combines shots to create a sense of forboding and builds action scenes with such a fully-realized sense of spatial awareness is as good as anyone. But at times she’s just as guilty of blatant and unnecessary lily-gilding as Ben Affleck at the end of Argo. Maya’s no-nonsense southerner of a colleague, for instance, has high hopes for a high-level informant. I can dig that, but there are better ways of illustrating this woman’s high hopes for this informant than having her bring a cake she baked him to their first meeting. Seriously, she bakes him a f*cking cake. This is very stupid. And unlikely. In reality, when a potential informant wasn’t subjected to the normal searches before a meeting at Camp Chapman in 2009, it seems to be because that informant had already been working closely with the CIA. I highly doubt it was because his handler was acting like a big ol’ girl waiting for her prom date. Not surprisingly, the CIA doesn’t seem to be too thrilled with this depiction. [Update: Apparently the cake thing actually happened. I stand corrected. Apologie.]
You get a greater sense of the Navy SEALS as people “with their dip and their f*cking velcro,” as Maya says, in the 10 minutes that they’re on screen than you do for Maya in the other two and a half hours.
As depicted in the film, the raid on Osama’s pad in Abbattobad is spare and tense and unsentimental and beautiful, but that unsentimentality could really use some context. On that front, Zero Dark Thirty whiffs. The only context we’re given when Maya pitches the raid to CIA director Leon Panetta, played by James Gandolfini (in real life, Obama would’ve been there too) is them arguing over what percentage chance there is that Bin Laden will actually be there when they swoop down and bust in the door. (60 percent, say the poindexters. 100 PERCENT! says Maya, because she believes in herself, you see). That’s all fine and dandy, but you mean to tell me that there wasn’t one discussion about what the plan was once they found him? It was just generally understood that they were going to blow his brains out, even if everyone in the house held up the white flag and laid face down on the floor? Totally leaving feelings aside, not even one callous, totally politically-motivated hypothetical about the public’s reaction to shooting an unarmed guy without a trial, or potential blowback from possible collateral damage? No discussion about the strategic value of capturing him instead of killing him? Bullshit. Those conversations did happen. Unsentimentalizing your movie is one thing, but you can’t just unsentimentalize your characters, especially when they’re real people. It’s unfair to the people calling the shots and the SEALs doing the dirty work.
Even if you forgive the lack of fully realized humans, because this is supposed to be about the “how” of an operation, there’s stuff missing. In all this supposedly-detailed, insider glimpse into the inner workings of those planning the Bin Laden raid, no one even ever uses the word “stop,” “put down,” “neutralize,” “collateral damage…” nothing. And it’s f*cking piss weak when you can’t even euphemize the decision to blow a dude’s brains all over the wall of his putrid living room. Don’t give us the excuse that you’re just presenting facts and then punt on all the hard stuff. This is a movie for people who want to eat their fish without having to gut it first. F*ck that. You want to talk tough, I’m with you, but you’re going to have to get your hands dirty.
And I know there will always be the excuse of “it was just starting a dialog!” But that doesn’t hold water for me. There were parts of this movie left out specifically to avoid a dialog, simply because it was easier. Kathryn Bigelow made an at-times suspensful movie (the raid in particular was incredible) that doesn’t feel as long as the 160-minute running time. But it seems like she’s got no skin in the game, and she desperately needs some.
GRADE: B-
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Other recent reviews by Vince: Gangster Squad, Beasts of the Southern Wild, Not Fade Away, Les Mis as a Smash Mouth song.



Derp. Have not yet read the review, but preemptive umbrage at the grade. BRB.
The more read about Zero Dark Thirty the more it it just sound like a shitty Silence of the Lambs rip-off with bin Ladin as Buffalo Bill.
“It tells me where bin Ladin is or it gets the hose again.”
“Incorrectly or not, people jumped to “torture is good” because there’s a vacuum of anything else.”
using that logic, everyone jumped on the N–word in Django because there was a “vacuum of anything else” and i know you don’t think that’s true. once again, vince, you’re way off the mark.
That is not even close to a good analogy.
“Vacuum of anything else” has never described a Tarantino movie, ever.
not surprised you think that Vince.
assuming i took your statement correctly, people focusing on the torture debate because there’s nothing else of substance to really focus on to me is the same thing as people focusing on the N-Word usage in Django because there’s nothing else of substance to focus on.
Now, I don’t believe either of those statements to be true. I think they’re both fantastic movies. I just find your theory hypocritical.
Why do the reasons for controversy surrounding an aspect of one movie need to be the same as the reasons for a different controversy surrounding a different movie? That’s not how logic works.
I’m not surprised you don’t understand something that seems self-explanatory to me, Dissident, but here goes:
“assuming i took your statement correctly, people focusing on the torture debate because there’s nothing else of substance to really focus on…”
Nope, stop right there, you’re not taking it correctly. My argument wasn’t about “nothing else of substance to really focus on…” (what does that even mean?), it was about a seeming lack of a point of view from the filmmaker. Like, filming scenes dispassionately, where you’re not quite sure which characters the filmmaker wants you to side with.
Does that sound like something that ever happens in a Tarantino movie?
No but not every movie has to have an agenda. I was perfectly fine with the detached approach, in fact i think it was the right move for the material
Harumph. If there had been a scene of Red Snatch or Torture McGee looking in the mirror reflecting (heh!) on the morality of their actions, you would have called bullshit and you would have been right. We see the effect it has on Chastain when she watches it, and we can surmise what it took for the guy with the PhD to reach the point where he thought it was necessary. Reviewers neglect to mention that they got their best info when they played good cop, and when the one dude was all, fuck the electrodes, what do you need to know?
The dumbest thing I’ve read was in the New Yorker review where Denby said that well, some Senators refute the idea that torture was involved, therefore Bigelow and Boal got it wrong. I generally trust politicians about as far as I can spit a rat; on an issue this controversial, *even if what they’re saying is accurate*, I certainly won’t assume that it is.
A big raid-planning scene would have been like Ocean’s Team 6. That a SEAL would shoot an armed dude in the heat of the moment made perfect sense to me.
A
Also: I think the woman snoring next to you had some influence on your experience–like whether or not the audience laughs at a comedy affects your opinion of it. I maintain that people fall asleep in movies because they’re tired, not bored, although whatever, I can’t speak for that chick.
I didn’t say they got it wrong about torture. I left thinking they got it pretty right. It was the shit they left out later that bugged me. I don’t want to see her “reflecting,” I want her to have some kind of personality. I didn’t want a big raid-planning scene, I just wanted someone to acknowledge that they were going in there to kill the dude.
Fair. Let me say this about that: I genuinely don’t know if the *plan* was to kill him, or if it was more “take him alive if possible, but shoot if you have to.” Anybody who has reliable info on that is welcome to share it, with the caveat that if the plan was to kill him regardless, the government has reason to keep that on the down low.
Casting points: I think Chris Pratt as a special force was genius. That’s a lot of the reason I agree with your note that the SEALs had distinct characters (or words to that affect)–an elite military guy with a plausible sense of humor was resonant.
I agree and disagree here Vinnie. I really wish they put some of that stuff into context such as more info on the briefings and decision makings. It felt like such a fucking cop out that it was just confirmed with a single phone call to her that the raid was on.
In regards to killing him being the mission, unless they want to take artistic privileges with source material that aint gonna happen. The head of the operation Bill McRaven himself a SEAL has mentioned many times that it wasn’t a kill mission and lawyers were always present during the meetings with the President to discuss the legals implications of such a raid from entering a sovereign state, killing or capturing him, what would happen should the raid go wrong etc. I wish those parts were highlighted.
@Cal fo sho. the sovereign state problem is really the only interesting thing to me about this operation. reciprocity is a bitch. if pakistan wants to enter the united states to kill a terrorist for crimes against Pakistan, how the hell will the US tell them no? some people suggest Pakistan gave secret consent to United States to abduct bin laden, but this seems a bit weird considering he was basically in Pakistan’s west point. also, since he was in there westpoint, it wouldve been a great risk to inform Pakistani officials of the planned raid. lastly, if the US had the consent of pakistan, i think they probably would not have killed bin laden. i think they killed to avoid the problem of Pakistan demanding his return, a return required by international law.
@meh I don’t think they killed him with all that mind, those guys are under duress, the suspense of who’s around the corner and the fact that this is public enemy number 1′s house your raiding I don’t think the SEALs are contemplating all that political stuff. How could the powers that be even predict how it’ll go down? I think they wanted him alive but preferred him dead and it could’ve gone either way. But in the end, the call to double tap him was on the point man not the guys across the planet monitoring the raid in a cozy office.
i didnt mean the seals made the political determination. i think it was decided before the raid that it was better to kill him, so they wouldnt have to deal with a trial. a trial that the international community would have objected to, a trial made weaker with ill-gotten, inadmissible evidence, and a trial that might not have even happened if Pakistan demanded his return.
I just read Mark Owen’s “No Easy Day”, and he said the plan was to shoot if he resisted, but if he surrendered, to take him alive. but they highly doubted that he would surrender. Pretty good read if you have a day to kill.
Anyone claiming that the torture didn’t happen, and therefore this movie is inaccurate, is a liar plain and simple. Of course they have to say that, because everyone in the world today is a pussy that thinks torture is bad.
The torture happened.
The problem with the depiction in the movie is that they claim (1) the torture worked flawlessly and (2) the torture was what was primarily responsible for finding OBL.
Both are wrong. And, no, it’s not a bunch of fucking hippies saying this.
[georgewashington2.blogspot.com]
@Otto–I don’t think the movie made either of those claims. They showed them getting all the useful information other ways.
Thank god. I thought I was crazy. Vince you know your shit. Movie was a B- at best…
Agree with you on that.
You think they actually filmed this in Atlanta?
If you say you can remember the names of three characters from this movie without checking IMDB, you are lying.
You can even throw in Bin Laden as one of your three.
Um, hi, I clearly remembered Red Snatch and Torture McGee. Pay up, chump.
Don’t forget Seal Team Andy Dwyer and dude from Warrior!. But yeah, I get your point
Tony Soprano, Bin Laden, Warrior guy
That was Navy SEAL Bert Macklin.
Stannis Baratheon and Michael from Lost stopped by too.
I’m not fully groking the torture debate. Is it that torture is depicted in ZDK in a manner that isn’t appropriate or is it that the film doesn’t take a stance on the use of torture? Seems like, unfortunately, the conversation around the use of torture during interrogation by the U.S. is greater in a film setting than in real life.
People that say it’s pro-torture will say that it’s depicted inappropriately, though I would argue that they’re either misreading the movie or that what they’re actually angry about is that it doesn’t take a stance on it. That Bowden piece is pretty good for background. He gets much deeper into the minutiae of the movie than I do here.
In all this supposedly-detailed, insider glimpse into the inner workings of those planning the Bin Laden raid, no one even ever uses the word “stop,” “put down,” “neutralize,” “collateral damage…” nothing.
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Vince, this part I gotta disagree on and I hope its only coz I’m reading it the way you intended, The raid for all intended purposes seems as close to the source material of various key players as possible. Most of all being the SEAL who recently got himself and bunch of guys in trouble when he released his book “No Easy Day.” The raid plays almost exactly how he mentioned it and he was the second or third man into Bin Laden’s room when they shot him. Not once does he mention that they ever uttered a word in terms of “stop, put down, hands up etc.” Even the scenes (spoiler alert) where they whisper his son’s name and he popped out and got shot has been mentioned by that author an other sources. Also, and I’m no military guy so my words mean shit here, with the rules of engagement on such a mission if you’re shot at, I highly doubt SEALs are gonna be clearing rooms and asking armed men to put their weapons down. At least not that I’m aware of.
Key word there being “planning.” I’m not talking about the raid itself, by then they all would’ve been on the same page. That was far and away the highlight of the movie. I’m talking about all the discussions leading up to it. The higher ups who had to give that raid the okay beforehand definitely had a conversation about what the specific plan was (capture vs. kill, rules of engagement, etc.). It might not have been a LONG conversation, but it was still a conversation. From everything I’ve read, this did happen.
You’re right there, I responded to that part in one of the comments above.
This is a valuable discussion. At a certain point, movies, books, etc. that depict actual events have a responsibility not only to be accurate but to also make a moral argument. In my opinion, depicting historical events without moral context is not telling the whole story or the whole truth.
Mark Bowden has had a problem with this in the past. If you read other accounts of the Battle of Mogadishu, you will find more moral issues than the book or film version of Black Hawk Down would have you believe existed. Or take a movie like John Wayne’s The Green Berets. That movie had a lot of problems, not the least of which was its “good guys vs. bad guys” tone that obviously didn’t match up with what was going on in Vietnam. Even Saving Private Ryan dealt with moral issues several times. There were two instances where soldiers had to decide whether or not to kill German prisoners. They also had to decide if they could help civilians caught in the crossfire. There were consequences to those choices.
The Bin Laden raid is basically the D-Day of our generation. It is the single most important military operation of the war on terror. To give it it The Green Berets treatment (albeit with better writing, acting, and production) is to oversimplify and whitewash the enormous complexities we’ve had to deal with since 9/11.
The Gren Berets comparison makes sense.
“The Bin Laden raid is basically the D-Day of our generation.” Man, does that, and this movie, just go to show how boring the war of terror has been since peaking way too early with 9-11.
That comment was so perfect that almost made me cry. Couldn’t agree more.
Well said, GTRO.
I thought they showed Chastain as disgusted when she was watching the torture. Later, when she is watching somebody beat a guy she’s interrogating, it did raise the questions of whether 1) she was doing this out of frustration or because she thought it was effective and 2) outsourcing the torture to other countries who have no qualms about doing it is a way we try to specious lay pretend to keep our hands (figuratively, but also kinda of literally) clean. Mostly, I prefer movies that make their moral position more obscure than obvious (looking at you, Spielberg).
Morality =/= truth. I also don’t think it’s possible to tell “the whole” of any story. Not bad overall points though.
I thought the movie was great, personally, but I can see why others didn’t like it so much. 20 or so minutes of the “call center” search could have been cut out without losing too much. The pro or anti-torture thing didn’t bother me so much. They tortured the guy, some of the information they got was good, other information was useless, and then they moved on. The only reason I’d be opposed to a dialogue about torture in the movie is because it would sidetrack the whole story.
As for why they didn’t show the discussion about possibly not killing Bin Laden, I think at that point the last thing you want to see, after about two hours of movie, is people sitting around for ten minutes discussing the merits of bringing him in alive, especially when everybody knows how things end.
Plot and everything aside, there were a shitload of random people popping up in this movie. Mark Duplass, Stephen Dillane (Stannis from GOT) and Mark Valley (who was in there for about 10 seconds if I recall correctly) were really random additions.
I agree with a lot of your points, but I have to say that I was pretty shocked that I wasn’t very bored during the first two hours. It’s confusing and mostly just people sitting around talking and/or looking at computers with the occasional explosion thrown in, but it didn’t drag as badly as I thought it would.
I pretty much agree with everything you said. That’s how I came off too and after I left I was just thinking “so Maya didn’t have ANY help?” It seemed false to me, which I guess because it was, but I think I would have been more of board if she had a bit of personality. I think Bigelow used the whole “you don’t have friends, family, a cat, anything” as a lazy way to get out of writing. Props to this review!
My favorite part of the movie was the guy in front of me saying, “HOOAH!” anytime ANYBODY in the compound was killed.
The marketing department behind the film is gonna piss some people off especially the 2 fast 7 furious crowd who are gonna expect SEALs SEALs SEALs only(spoiler) to have them in there for all of 10 minutes in the film lol.
I’ve really been a long time follower and reader on the background work behind the raid by intelligence, and military folks so watching the film was fun in a “now I get to see it all on film” type of way.
It sounds like someone saw Claire Danes in Homeland and thought, hey, people like her, let’s transplant her into our movie.
Supposedly both roles are based upon the same woman.
Except when J Chas said she didn’t want to be the girl who fucks. They clearly went in a different direction on Homeland.
I, for one, am wholly unsatisfied by Ms. Bigalow’s complete failure to EVEN ADDRESS the involvement of the lizard people in both 9/11 and the hunt for Bin Laden.
i liked this review better when it was written by armond white
OH MAN THAT’S THE MOST CLEVER REVIEW BURN EVER THAT I’VE NEVER HEARD BEFORE
““High information readers” and “High information viewers” consume limitless propaganda while thinking themselves “engaged,” “enlightened” or Internet “smart.” This includes film critics who award Zero Dark Thirty and those pundits and politicians, such as Senators John McCain and Diane Feinstein, who disparage it. Both sides want confirmation of their feelings about Obama’s unmentionable war on terror; they see in the film what they want to find.”
i didnt even to mean it as a burn (i have to remind myself that i live in a cruel world where armond white isn’t appreciated for the genius and incredible critic that he is). it was supposed to be a backhanded compliment, both of you see the movie as a void that allows the viewer to push it to the point they want the movie to be in.
it’s why there’s such an obvious divide between the two sides that bicker over it, and why the divide seems to be drawn between people who approach the movie from politics and people who approach the movie from film criticism.
“Chastain’s character’s enigmatic patriotism that will please or irritate viewers depending on their politics. Her post-IED comment (“I believe I was spared for this mission”) suggests a messianic devotion that comes out of nowhere. Zero Dark Thirty gives no sense of her background or who she really is which vitiates the film’s emotional effect”
and you agree on the lack of context for chastain’s character, making her another piece of the movie that allows for projection from the audience
“In one of the CIA pow-wows where the amped voice level is close, loud, intimate, forceful, an agent declares “We don’t know what we don’t know. It’s tautology.” That’s also Bigelow’s position on the history she recounts. Her cool distance from confirming facts makes Zero Dark Thirty a tautology,”
you should be proud. you’re in good company.
I was sorely disappointed with the decision not to depict the CIA motorboating people.
I’d motor boat the shit outta Jessica Chastain
So does this mean Hot Tub Time Machine retains it’s championship belt for ‘Greatest Movie Ever’?
Based on the review, I’m assuming there are zero dark titties in this, yes?
No boobs but there is man ass
no one has mentioned the wu-tang reference in this movie?
I don’t agree with the idea that “realistic depictions” of events need to necessarily make a moral argument. Additionally, I don’t even think this argument is relevant to Zero Dark Thirty, because there is a real beating heart to this movie, created in and by the margins of this massive, all-consuming manhunt.
Look at the scenes of Chastain when she first witness torture (particularly the close-ups on her face and more stylistically, the contrast of her outfit to everyone else’s and the surroundings – torturejuxtaposition), or the moment of her in a fetal position by her desk, or the moment in the restaurant when she gets asked about her personal life. They all serve to explain her as a person, not a cog. Yes, we don’t get soft-focus flashbacks to her childhood (whattup Homeland intro sequence) and we don’t get ham-handed dialogue to try and probe her emotional depths (as sexual as it sounds). In fact, what’s so awesome is that, for a moment I thought Bigelow had totally copped to the temptation to do just that: to have some sickly sweet, “what’s going on with you?” gal-talk moment and then…well ALL CAPS STUFF HAPPENS.
That’s what’s so awesome and heartbreaking about this movie and why I liked it so much. You see Chastain as a type of obsessive who knows she needs to lock it up and not only does she know it but the environment itself is totally suffocating her. Literally, the movie itself will not let her experience something outside of this manhunt (i.e. ALL CAPS STUFF).
As for the point that it’s “f*cking piss weak when you can’t even euphemize the decision to blow a dude’s brains all over the wall of his putrid living room.” I mean, this seems like mental gymnastics to find a reason to dislike the movie. It was Osama Bin Laden…not “a dude.” The entire movie served as an exercise in the brutal pursuit vs. evasion that we all followed for the last decade. That’s the euphemization. There’s no punting there. In fact to romanticize the moment with a wide-eyed Osama feeling the bullet piercing his chest would be the weakness. This was revenge. This was America “moving heaven and earth” to kill or capture a man and, in a moment, he was dead and the goal was achieved. I loved that portrayal. America’s boogie-man just dead, just like that.
I’m not asking for romanticizing, not at all. I’m asking for acknowledgement. Acknowledge that there was a conversation among the people planning the raid about what the SEALs were supposed to do when they got in the room. There was. Rules of engagement are usually pretty specific, and I can only imagine that they’d be even more so in this case. That’s important to the story. In fact, it’s something that would only bolster your point. I’m not even asking the movie to take a stand on it, I’m just saying that’s a rather crucial part of the story that they left out, simply because it seemed like they didn’t want to talk about it.
Eff this movie, I’m looking forward to Zero Dark Thirty Two, when I can see Cuba Gooding Jr. lead a team of actual seals on a mission to thwart a terrorist take over of Ben and Jerry’s.
Isnt Skeet Ulrich going to be in that?
I really like Jessica Chastain’s work in general but I can’t understand why she was nominated for this role. Her character has no personality, no attitude (and that scene when she said She was the motherfucker who got to that or whatever was just dumb as hell): I couldn’t believe that a person that the movie made a point of remembering every time that “she was smart”, “she was the smartest” and blablabla could lack of presence or boldness. It’s like staring to a blank page and I know this girl is an amazing actress.
Chris Pratt had more going on with his seal character, although I cannot remember his name (Hell I can remember only Maya and… Osama Bin Laden)
The film was a big disappointment in my humble opinion.
I agree with the surprise at the nomination. I have no issue with her not having a personality though. I just saw her as a means to move on the plot. But yes, she was bland and lacked depth.
On another note I was truly surprised at how big Chris Pratt’s role was. He was probably my favorite character in the movie and not because of my love for Parks and Recreation but because he was one of the more fleshed out and interesting characters and he was only in the movie for about 40 minutes.
She got the nomination because she emoted so well and made this blank slate character human, even after she was devoid of cheesy context and background info. I like this perspective way more and its the opposite of what Ben Affleck did in Argo with his character. It got borderline cheesy once they started focusing on his life.
I wish Kathryn Bigelow would make Point Break 2. Also, Kathryn Bigelow, I would bang.
KNIVES OUT!! Vince, I thought Firecrotch’s persona was supposed to be that bland, like she devoted her whole life to hunting bin laden, to the point that she didn’t really have a personality anymore. So that last scene when she’s on the plane and the realization of “oh shit, now what?” washes over her its more powerful because she doesn’t have any life outside of bin laden. Just my thoughts.
I think you’re right, I just think that they did too good a job and the movie would’ve been better with more personality. She’s not quite believable without it.
cool.
I’m gonna have this carved in my fuckin’ headstone when I’m dead.
“Just because something is supposed to be shit, doesn’t stop it from being shit.”
If you’re making a movie with one character the focus will be on almost entirely, that character better be interesting. Otherwise we’re just watching paint dry so Mark Boal can come along when it’s done and say, “See, look at what it really means!”
So she’s like a metaphor for post-911 Murica or some shit? Although we forgot about OBL for a while with that whole Iraq thing.
Agreed. I thought the exact same thing. She had sacrificed everything to find Bin Laden, even passing up a chance to go back to DC. She was realizing she had nothing to go home to.
I also appreciated the character development arc. She starts out timid, a bit queasy during interrogation. Eventually she’s leading them and having a dude punch guys in the face. By the end she’s an assertive strong character. And in the last scene she reverts in a way. Her performance was excellent and the writing for her character was solid.
I’m surprised by the grade. “Jesus, this movie is nothing but straight presentation, and a lot of the presentation is annoying or stupid. The main character is a blank slate, like a hard working Bella. So, uh…not bad! Could be better, but not bad!”
Also:
“Maya screams in her boss’s face, in a not-particularly-believable way, that he’s just some asshole looking to pad his resume (with another “Mullah Crackadullah”).”
What the fuck does she think she’s doing trying to catch Bin Laden? That’s not the ULTIMATE resume padder? Why are you qualified to deliver pizza? Cause I caught fuckin’ Bin Laden!
Overall, I’ll probably never see this because it looks like a TV movie, like that Harvey Keitel one they had for 9/11 back in the day. It doesn’t offer anything new on a story we already know. Plus, B & B don’t really do it for me as writer and director. The Hurt Locker (and it sounds like this one too) is just this big long set up for some minor punch line at the end. Look at the camraderie and the tension of being a disposal team in Iraq! Actually its about how this guy can’t stop. Their movies have an anti-climax.
This movie is not like a “TV-Movie” at all
I should clarify. It looks like a TV movie in the sense that its not really giving us anything new; its just a presentation of facts (allegedly) that are fresh in the public’s minds. It doesn’t take a particular stand on them; it just shows us the facts. But the news it’s based upon is at the point where it’s not new enough to be interesting, and not old enough for us to be nostalgic about it. None of the characters sound interesting in this at all. And the dialogue doesn’t sound all that sharp either. It just sounds like everyone’s a mouthpiece to move the story along, to the climax we already know, with the minor point at the very end Boal and Bigelow seem to be starting a theme with. In the Hurt Locker’s case, that point was kind of new. In this instance, it’s a point other people have already done, only they did it better.
I haven’t seen the movie (or read the comments), but Jessica Chastain’s character is not made up. ‘No Easy Day’ talks about her at length. And according to some source, they got her personality dead on: [www.theatlanticwire.com]
I should have added…I very much enjoyed this review. Very well written.
The hard stuff is just a reality — they didn’t punt. Don’t we get enough ridiculous forced moralizing out of Hollywood as is? How the fuck would they have all the answers?
Read the goddamned review again. I didn’t want moralizing, I wanted them to show a key part of the story in a frank manner. Which they didn’t do.
The Wire doesn’t answer any questions, it gives and accurate telling of the issues though. This movie could’ve explored several questions and not offered up easy solutions, ya know like other War movies and even Documentaries that have come out the past 10 years.
It didn’t, it’s sad, let’s move on.
He was already dead.
Bigelow isn’t getting enough shit for having that black cat run across the informant’s car before it blows up and kills everyone. That’s some film school college freshman type shit.
I saw a lengthy ZD30 trailer at the movie theater the other day and I thought it looked like a Michael Bay ‘Murrica wankfest. I was kind of surprised how terrible it looked. Now that I got that off my chest, I will go and read the review. I’m sure it’s going to be really good.
As far as any possible dramatic theme’s or subtexts in the movie go, as the story progressed I felt like they were trying to show Maya as Team U.S.A.’s fanatical analogue to the terrorist. I saw her own tenacity and convictions over her mission mirroring the people she was interrogating and chasing over the course of the movie, and ultimately being what it took to pin down Bin Ladin.
I remember the scene near the end of the 2nd act of the movie where she tells Edgar Ramirez (did he have a name?) upfront that she feels like she was ‘chosen’, which I hated cause I still don’t know if it was a case of a character unnecessarily saying what she felt and we should know by now, or cause it means something totally counter to what I was reading into the character by that point, and therefore voiding the most interesting feature I found within the movie.
Great review as always.
Saw the movie the other night. I really liked it but there was something I couldn’t put my finger on that didn’t sit well with me. I think this review touched on that towards the end. Essentially the characters feel very mechanical. I think the actors delivered excellent performances, and the directing was amazing. But I will agree that the characters don’t seem to have much depth or personality, and there are hardly any emotional dialogues where there should have been.
That having been said, I actually appreciate that the movie took no side in any of the arguments. Something I personally dislike is political bias in a movie, I prefer to make my own decision on it and not have hollywood’s opinion shoved down my throat.
I have reservations about some of the film, but I thought it was pretty solid, and the directing in particular was fantastic. Bigelow was robbed.
I think you’re B- is spot on, mate.
A few other things that pulled it down: That one friggin’ moment where that black dude asks Maya what she’s gonna do, and she looks him right in the face and says “I’m gonna kill Osama bin Laden” or whatever she says. Yeah right.
Also, that whole “where do you want to go?” moment in the plane. Yeah, I get the intended Cast Away-esque effect, but I don’t believe it for a second.
It’s a one-note film in many aspects buoyed by the relevance of its subject matter.
Maya’s no-nonsense southerner of a colleague, for instance, has high hopes for a high-level informant. I can dig that, but there are better ways of illustrating this woman’s high hopes for this informant than having her bring a cake she baked him to their first meeting. Seriously, she bakes him a f*cking cake. This is very stupid. And unlikely.
Actually, it’s not only likely, it happened.
Reagan’s NSA Bud McFarlane took a homemade cake with him when he went to Iran to start up some of the arms-for-hostages talks in the ’80s.
One of the most discomforting aspects of a film such as this is the “THIS IS TRUE, THIS IS TRUE” nature of the narrative that an overly jingoistic populace is sure to eat up. Government embedded filmmaking has ushered in an official story that the body politic can watch and interpret as only a shortsighted arm chair Niccolo Machiavelli could do best! “Damn, that torture was bad but look, we got the evil, democracy hating, free world terrorizing bin laden!” USA ! USA! USA!
I hate my generation.
Which generation are you? Some merit more hate than others.
Generally agree with the review, but the cake thing happened: [www.thedailybeast.com]
Oops. Well silly me. I stand corrected.
Weird you’re hung up on the film not showing plans for capture. I assumed every detail would have been discussed but why show that if we know he gets killed?
Because that’s an actual conflict. It seems like they traded that actual conflict with some contrived, or at least, inflated ones.
just saw ZDT. high expectations, disappointed. KB kind a blew it overall for me. The most famous action in modern history and it did not deliver. KB is certainly talented to get this done, but now i feel other directors could have done a better job.
the raid picturization itself (scenes coming finally after a lo…ng wait) fell short despite the slickness of what was dramatization of a factual and well known historical event. Cinematically I wondered if other directors could have done a better job overall. KB was perhaps sticking to the “true facts given to her from unprecedented access to the CIA” (whatever we are to think of that) …but in trying to depict ST6 as the elite of military teams, yet having a human side etc… she really fell short….example one marine says in a stupor …”i killed a guy on the 3rd floor…” to show how he comes to grips with his place in history…. did’nt work for me. some of the radio chatter is inane right during the raid, too many explosives planting scenes, the fact that there were more than 2 helos that night, but it was quite disorienting as to where they all were relative to the raid target, marine movement around the building during the raid was shown appearing very haphazard/perhaps the editing), to the extent for me the tension was rapidly deflating towards the middle of it all, and left me with an impression they were going in – quite heavy handedly – to get a low level target not OBL. Almost like a police ATF type david koresh raid I thought KB hammed much of it.
[Watching the raid scene in the movie rekindled the lingering real life questions of the event when it happened: How much of what we have been told, and now shown on movie and documentary format, is really true? For example, 2 helos (plus a few more) landed in a paki town one mile from Paki Military Academy (Paki's "West Point") so close to a garrison making loud noises and explosions for 45 minutes without any detection/response, esp if Pakis actually knew where OBL was. Granted helos approached undetected by radar due to their special nature, but landing noisily just one mile away from the garrison on a quiet night should make such a huge racket, especially to military ears?
This brings up an obvious but most important counter question -- one that potentially *defeats the whole Maya premise* -- did Pakis give OBL away to the USA, being done with him? Is that why so much brazen action that night so close to the paki garrisons went strangely unresponded?
Another one: OBL must have heard the helos landing right on his head. That is too much on a quiet night, yet it took many minutes -- more than 15, to reach the 3rd floor. was OBL shitting bricks waiting? what is the possible scenarios here? there are those theorists who still hang on to "this whole raid a setup" (ie OBL dead long ago) Most of us, me included believe they got OBL that night, but .....its strange that events are shown moving at a pace such that the target is simply waiting for the marines to come kill him.Very much possible, but strange to think through]
As for Maya’s depiction as a one dimensional personality i had no issues with that – driven humans are like that sometimes, and then they move on. I did not like though KB pumping this character up so garishly …in the last scene she gets on a military transport plane, and the dialog gloats how she is the only passenger etc. and then the stupid question – she being asked ” so where are you going”. Really! like a cab driver asking? And they show Maya speechless as if her life is now directionless and empty….A shoddy attempt to pump up the hero out of Maya, and endear her to the viewer after her great achievement. .sorry KB, what were you thinking.
I wonder this movie should have been given to someone else to direct.
I have’nt seen Hurt Locker or the NatGeo docudrama, but now i will see both.
Too many F and MF words. We are sure these are used commonly and frequently even in the highlevel meetings but cinematically too many.
Also the meeting where the boss yells at the room full of people saying its been so many years nothing to show for the money spent so do your jobs….that scene did not work.
Also i am not sure what Maya really did to get OBL. At one point Leon Panetta sits with her at the cafateria and cozies up to her. Unnecessary scene , possibly to convey she is now suddenly “the” one to get OBL for them. etc. Really KB is trying hard to create a hero out of her for some reason, but getting OBL COULD not have been a one man /woman thing, clearly an attempt to cinematically pump Maya up.
So KB does things for cinematic reasons at the wrong times, while not using cinematic reasons to make some scenes better. I did see many people liked the movie, and Rotten Tomatoes mostly had favorable reviews, but I agree with the unfavorable ones for the movie’e handling and delivery but i still saw it for the fact that we all rejoice the ending of the most despicable enemy of the USA and want to see it on the screen ourselves.
Wow this was one of the best movies I’ve ever seen. Performances were great in it, direction was way spot on, and talk about tension. The only real flaw I could think of is that Jessica Chastain’s character basically has no personality or background info but I’m pretty sure that was intentional. The movie was mostly about the mission, not a character study like The Hurt Locker (which seems to be the antithesis of this film). If ya want to watch a character study about all this, watch Homeland (since Carrie on that show is based off the same woman Maya is based on apparently).
And wow, that raid at the end was absolutely gripping. One of the best action sequences of all time.
Oh and Andy Dwyer may be the best character in this movie (maybe because he seemed to be the only one with a personality) so that was cool. It was also fun to play “spot the TV star” during it as well (Coach Taylor, Michael from Lost, Henry Francis from Mad Men, Andy, John Borrowman, Stannis from Game of Thrones).
Guess some of the haters don’t like it because it didn’t try to tackle all of the hard stuff, such as the discussion of whether they wanted to kill or capture Bin Laden. From what we got in the movie, it basically happens in the moment and I thought that was neat.
I’m bummed about this review, but it sounds like Vince wanted to hate it. Lots of nitpicking over things that are missing, like how a Sci-Fi nerd would bitch about a movie being unrealistic because such and such gizmo doesn’t really work that way. My brother is in intelligence in the Marines and he confirms that this movie kicks ass at showing the administration aspect of the War on Terror. The analysts are hardly involved with the major political policy discussions. They are executors, not politicians who moralize over everything.
TL;DR: Give this movie all the awards (and Bigelow definitely got fucked over in the Best Director race). Don’t agree with the review, but hey at least it got the most comments for a review here at least since The Avengers.
Vince, what you describe as a conflict about the rules of engagement doesn’t strike me as a significant conflict at all. I say this mostly because I don’t think the end result of those discussions was ever genuinely in doubt. Parsing the merits of capturing versus killing OBL is interesting in the abstract, but I don’t think you can say it necessarily belonged in the movie when the end result was this:
“CIA Director Leon Panetta told NBC this week that the SEAL team was authorized to kill bin Laden but could have taken him alive if the opportunity arose.” (from the article you linked to)
Doesn’t that seem like a really obvious end result? By that I mean, can you imagine O and Panetta coming to a different conclusion? I can’t. So, I think that inserting scenes that depict the top brass as truly conflicted over the ROE would’ve been kind of disingenuous.
I agree with you that it wouldn’t have seriously hurt the movie to throw in a kind of stock, situation-room-type scene with Panetta and O solemnly acknowledging that they have to go with full-on warzone ROE. But wouldn’t that be Hollywood BS, if it didn’t actually happen in the White House? I get that it happened in newspapers and on TV — and among thoughtful people like you and lots of FD regulars — but if the filmmakers wanted to hew as closely as possible to the facts of the decision making that resulted in the raid, I think it makes sense to leave it out.
I could be wrong about the intensity of the discussions about the spectrum of force to use in the raid, but I don’t think I am. Either way, in the absence of a genuinely forthright account of those discussions between Panetta and Obama — which certainly does not exist right now and might not ever — I think that the filmmakers’ decision to leave them out, rather than ducking a hard question, instead argues that the question just wasn’t all that hard, at least as it was discussed among the people actually directing the raid.
I just think if you make a whole movie about killing a guy, it’s kind of a bitch move that no one even acknowledges what they’re going to do once they bust into his house. That part of the story is interesting to me.
That’s fair. I don’t totally disagree with you, I just think it’s less important than you do. I also think that that sort of complexity is something that can be fleshed out better with more hindsight (like if this movie were made in 10 years).
BTW are you doing standup in LA anytime soon? Or Phoenix/Scottsdale?
The only good part of the movie was the water-boarding and torture scenes, the rest was sub-par on action, acting and any “real” excitement. I though ARGO was done much better in every aspect and would support it over this “true political story” in a heartbeat! Zero Dark Thirty barely held my interest and most of the characters were sub-par for being “real”.
Its a movie, want to know what its really like , apply to the nsa or join the navy and become a CT and get on with the teams. Its all bullshit, candy coated to appeal to people who dont know any better. Anything worth knowing wont be in a shitty movie greenlit by the pentagons pr dept. head. Just buy your ticket eat your popcorn and shut the fuck up. No one here knows any truth about this , only what you are allowed to know and if you believe otherwise you are stupid.
I think it’s narrow-minded to think that a filmmaker must push you in one direction or another. This event was real and compelling. Let her tell the story and you can draw your own conclusions. Don’t be so helpless.
That’s the thing, I don’t think she told the story. She left out compelling parts.
Vince, I must say that your argument for why Zero Dark Thirty is a disappointment was one of the best reviews I’ve read thus far. I wouldn’t have gone so far to give it a B-(I rated it a D) but points on why the movie fails were salient and well worded(even using the word “bullshit”).
My thoughts as to why Chastain’s character has no character is simply because she isn’t playing one. She’s been tasked with playing a metaphor or an ideal. She is playing Lady Liberty. Hear me out.
She never ages. This is a woman who has been hunting the world’s worst criminal(if you believe the film’s hyperbole) and yet there is never any point where Chastains’s Maya ages. Or becomes a pill popper, alcoholic,sex addict, or even angry really. Why is that? In roughly ten years she has gone from being Jessica Chastain to….Jessica Chastain. Not even a gray hair. When people state “You look beat”, she never looks tired??I laughed out loud when she used the word mother******. It was like watching Ron Howard swear. That was when I realized who she was representing was not a person, but an ideal. Her weeping at the very end of the movie was fraudulent from a human standpoint, but completely in keeping with an idol or the metaphor of Lady Liberty. This is one of the reasons the Seals were more than willing to die for the mission. As one quips; “I believe her”.
Why? It’s easy to see why. She’s red headed, perfectly skinned and ageless.She’s an ideal. This is what bothered me most about ZDT. It was moving from HBO tele movie blandness to outright propaganda. As you mentioned so succinctly, this is a movie that wants to have its fish, but refuses to gut it. It is only reflective of one thing and that is, what is right for the US? It’s quite possibly Bigelow’s worst movie.